'Ware the Boojum Snark!

[furtech]

Ever since discovering science fiction fandom I've been bothered by a question: what causes people to "grow up"? This particular fandom-- like many others-- have members with a wide range of ages (though skewed towards the college-aged).

Before science fiction, I just assumed that you were allowed to screw around until you graduated college (or grad school), then got married, had a few kids and settled into being near-copies of one's own parents. Not so bad.

But...I had too much fun. I did notice some people gradually leave fandom, but subtly-- like victims of a Boojum Snark: "You will softly and suddenly vanish away. And never be met with again!" The ones who leave with loud protests and fanfare are back in days or weeks (and I learned to ignore attention-craving stunts). The ones who, after a gradual decline in attendance at meetings and cons, just stop showing up disturbed me quite a bit more. People who, a year or two later have you wonder, "What ever happened to 'What-was-his-name!'?"


Recent Journal posts by several friends and acquaintences have me noticing similar progressions. Subtle changes in thought, words, decisions. People I couldn't imagine leaving fandom are using phrases that nag at me: speaking of losing interest in what they love to do (costume, art, write) and talk more and more about jobs and settling down in a beaten-horse kind of tone. Or feeling awkward because most members of their fandom are so comparatively young. Or just talking like parents. I've noticed this in a half-dozen journals and a similar number of RL friends.

Sometimes it's a matter of necessity: conventions and hobbies are a luxury and responsible people sacrifice that temporarily when times are tough. The trouble is, one you leave it's easy to not come back. Is that what happened to many of them?

Others just sound like they've decided to hang it up: they had fun, now it's time to settle down. What scares me is that in any case they make a transition not unlike Wendy in "Peter Pan". Those last few pages, where she had completely forgotten what Neverland was like, and-- seeing Peter again-- suddenly longs to return, only to be told she can never go back. That last part was sad...but it was that she had so completely forgotten what it was like to have a child's sense of fun and wonder that troubled me. And it's not just forgetting fannish lives: how can one forget how much fun one had as a child? All the wonder, the excitement and anticipation?

And it's not just jobs or even having kids: my older sister loved having kids because it gave her an excuse to collect toys and comics and go to Disney films and have fun. She's more playful now than before she got married and had two really neat children.


So tell me: have any of you felt this way lately? What are your feelings about leaving "Never-never-land"? *Why* do see yourself leaving?

Comments

[dustmeat.livejournal.com]

In my life I have shifted from fandom to fandom, but I never stop being weird. So the idea (for me) of dropping out and becoming 'mundane' is ludricrous. But to answer regarding FURRY fandom, it sometimes seems too narrow for my broader sci-fi tastes. Do I leave? Of course not: I would miss my pals.

[furtech.livejournal.com]

I suspect I'll always be a kid at some level...even if, years from now, that just means that my only involvement is making cool halloween costumes for my kids. And I'll always be an avid reader of comics and sf/f books.

Science fiction fandom, as I note below, is where I consistently have the most fun. I think it's the higher percentage of functional adults who still have goofy fun and interesting brains.

not I, good sir..

[c-eagle.livejournal.com]

If anything, I generally try to recapture any lost tracks with what time I can fit into life for those nostalgic goodnesses..

You've really covered a lot of nuances and levels here already :>
For those who do leave a youthful embrace, some may choose to... and others may be swept beyond their control. Others yet have the ability, perhaps even luxury of never fully needing to lose those early things they cherish.
And as you say, some can never quite go back.

Others still may have the blessing of learning which are the most fulfilling, therefore leaving a few of the childhood pursuits and allowing more room for a few of the best ones, be they comics, music, art, etc... all the while balancing somehow the demands and requirements of adult life. I think this is where I sorta fit. ^v^

Like, always trying to keep a few traditions, like San Diego Comic Con... while keeping a watchful eye out for new and valid ones to to fill gaps left by things lost, where possible.

Best Wishes!

Re: not I, good sir..

[furtech.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to think that there is no "good" or "bad" about leaving those things behind-- just different. As I mention below, if you're a generally happy person, whether you're doing fannish things or "mundane" things you'll still probably be happy. <--And it's *exactly* that kind of thinking that worries me now, because I see it as the first step to drifting out.

One of the significant problems I've been dealing with stems from my unwillingness to let go of the hobbies and activities I like so much. I feel like Linus and his blanket: his life would be simpler without the nasty, ratty thing...but he just can't let it go.

[wyoon.livejournal.com]

It's funny you mention this. I have been recently thinking of nearly the same thing, just not in the exact same way. I thought of the people that I knew about before I actually got into the fandom to any measurable degree and the fact that things have changed to the point of me not being as interested in it as much. The only thing I can't ignore is that I have met some people that I would miss greatly if I disappeared completely.

[furtech.livejournal.com]

But how has the fandom changed/evolved that is losing your interest? Since people -are- the fandom, how has the mix of attendees or type of personality attending changed?

And yeah-- I keep going because of good friends and the prospect of meeting new ones.

Oops

[wyoon.livejournal.com]

OH...OK...
Yea, I am drifting away but only a little, but I can't get away from what I still like and the friends and associations I have made.

Right before I got into the "furry" fandom, I had just found the internet and was looking for bigger and better ways to make my werewolf costume for haunted houses. My first hits were the tried and true big name costume retailers out there and then I started finding other stuff fandom related. I was in paradise with the really amazing anthro. art and the fun loving costuming that was going on. I lucked up and made contact with some fairly respectable individuals there were artist and costume makers. I never really saw the dark side of things when I first got here about 6 years ago.

Time has passed and I have gradually acclimated myself to the "NORM" in the fandom. Just in the past couple of years though, things have seemed to just gotten really crazy. Maybe my eyes are open more. *Shrugs* I don't really know for sure. Since I stay away from most politics and don't get aggravated by the "I'm better than you are" people, I haven't been nearly annoyed. But these young (and sometimes older) head cases that come in here out of curiosity and find they are accepted by the majority of the friendly people in the fandom, they mess with me. "They" seem to be interested in being in the group for reason's other than what I had ever understood this unique fandom to be about. They also seem to be the ones that would make the biggest perverted show in public only to give others a bad name. I tend to shy away from associations like that.

I have to be honest with myself though. I'll never drop this fandom off completely. I can find the good in most of the bad at any point. I'll be weird like that for as long as I live and there are just too many people I would miss.

Re: Oops

[furtech.livejournal.com]

That's another reason sf fandom will always be my roots: they spent years working hard to improve the public's image of science fiction and it's finally paying off. Public perception is a wide brush...and I'm just not interested in being painted with the same view that includes the Vanity Fair article, Sex2K and that episode of CSI. For both personal and professional reasons.

[rcking]

I'm certainly not planning on leaving, but I can feel some of the forces you describe. I personally like the fandom BECAUSE it is full of young people - dealing with them helps keep me young.

Some people who are creative feel eclipsed. They usually join while they are still improving their skills and they soak up the egoboo of producing grander and more respected creations. Then they hit a plateau for a few years and suddenly feel overwhelmed by the fact that they haven't done anything incredible "lately" or overwhelmed by what the other fans have done in the mean time. This can stir up all sorts of unhappy feelings.
Self doubt. Paranoia. Fear of irrelevance or being a "has been".

As a parent of a pre-teen and a young teen, I certainly understand the feeling of inhibition one lays upon one's self. While you can't turn back the clock and become a doe-eyed newbie again, I think it is possible to ease your way back in. Enthusiasm is contagious. Long talks with new people about what they love about the fandom help firm up the base.
For example, chat up someone who discovered the fandom late in life and is still in the euphoric stage. That's a great mix of life experience and enthusiasm.

[furtech.livejournal.com]

I don't feel eclipsed: I love being challenged by new talent. There are times I feel taken for granted (in some fandoms). Furry cons especially are rife with petty politics, ego trips, jealousy and generally childish behavior. And I have to admit being discouraged when I put hundreds of hours of work into a costume and overhear, "Huh. I guess that's OK, for -him-." As if I cheated or used some magic that I'm selfishly hoarding from others. Bleah.

People who discover fandom late are great fun!

[lacy.livejournal.com]

I've done quite a bit of fandom "shifting" I guess you could say, where (at any given time) I'm into one thing more than another. And for that reason, my attention becomes focused on that one thing, at least for the time being, until maybe another more appetizing hobby comes along for me to get into. However, there are a few things I've never really left.. like anything Science Fiction related. I still love it all, and as far as I can tell that's not going to change.

While I still have some of the same likes/dislikes, what I'm into hardcore does change every so often. For several years I was very much a Pokemon fan in every way, shape, and form. However, I still like all things related to Pokemon quite a bit, but I'm not empowered to go out and seek others who enjoy Pokemon as well, and play/chat with them on the subject.

That being said, for me "furry" is different because making costumes is different than just your average hobby. It gives some sense of accomplishment instead of just.. relating to people who like the same thing? There is some of that in there, but for me it's the making of costumes that keeps me wanting to do more. If I do ever give up my costuming, it will probably be for lack of time. Right now time isn't a huge problem for me, I'm going to college and making costumes is like a part-time job that I really enjoy. But sometime in the distant future, lack of time may cause me to burn out. I'm not going to say, "I'll be doing this forever," because I know that's a bit unlikely. For the time being though, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. :)

[furtech.livejournal.com]

Science fiction fandom has always been my fannish base. I'll drift to different fandoms-- comic, anime, furry, horror-- but I always come back. Solid group of people, varied interests, generally nice. My oldest friends are from sf fandom.

[waynekaa.livejournal.com]

I've certainly toned down as compared to my activities from a few years ago. Due to my periods of inactivity, I'd get questions from my friends if I've quit from time to time. Not that I think they're really concerned as it must make good gossip :D

[furtech.livejournal.com]

You and Darryl give me hope. Then again, you're still just young snotty kids-- your generation don't know nuthin'! Why, when I was your age, Anime was only known to shut-in geeks and child molesters! Oh, um...and a couple of too-cool-for-words guys. Heh.

[waynekaa.livejournal.com]

If we're your hope, better prepare your last rites :D
Ya, I liked being the young upstart. Too bad there's an entire new generation of whippersnappers out there who think they know it all.

[redstorm.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of it is also the company you keep. If your friends and family for the most part believe that you should 'grow up and settle down' you always have theat pressure nagging in the back of your mind 'I can't do this forever, I have to become a 'real' person soon, I must grow up.'
In truth, you don't. i mean, you can't run around like a chile with a childs lack of responsibility and understanding of repurcussions, but you do not have to get married, settle and be who society pressures you to be. Times and lifestyles are changing. If you exist happily nurturing your childish (creative?) side, then that's what's right for you.
I look at how my friends have changed over the years. The ones who have now 'grown up' have the fun of marriages falling apart and a self-enforced secluded existance where they only socialise with the 'right' kinds of people. The others seem happy, if a little unsettled.
Sometimes if i'm away from something long enough I think I could happily live without it - then i'm reminded of what i'm missing and throw myself back into it again.

I don't see it as not growing up, I just see us as the new breed of grownups, the ones who have chosen not to sacrifice their happiness.

BTW - got a copy of Box of Delights burned on DVD. You wanted to watch it yea?
The others

[furtech.livejournal.com]

I think this is true for the most part. If you have a friend-support group made up of fans, you're likely to stay fannish (though people still manage to leave). I haven't seen the the unhappiness you mention of those who leave: most of the people I know just lead different lives. If they were happy people as fans, they are still happy; if they were unhappy as fans, they're still unhappy.

I agree about the new grownups: kids of hippies and free-thinkers tend to be more child-like even when they grow up/leave the fandoms. They also (to me) seem to expect more entitlement, the "right" to do what they want (regardless of responsibility or social impact or consideration of others). They should have called this "Generation N" (N for Narcissistic).

And sure-- I'd be interested in the BoD: are there spfx wolves in there or just sad wolf-like real dogs?

[redstorm.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I think the 'entitlement' thing is very American. Brits seem to accept being downtrodden.

As for BoD - there are some real wolves, and some cheesy early 80's masks (the bad guys are a wolf and a fox respectively - you get flashes of the wolf). Plus some animation (stags and fish mostly) and flashes of 'power'.
Old and dated, but cool as you like.

I'll bring it when i'm back early Jan.

[furtech.livejournal.com]

I dunno...if "downtrodden"=low self-esteem, then they over-compensate by being on the cocky/snide/mocking side of friendly. At least, that's an undertone I've experienced with newer Brit fans.

Thanks for the info on BoD-- look forward to seeing it.

[redstorm.livejournal.com]

Yea, the London/Essex culture is quite heavily into 'standing up for yourself' - the stuff Brits mock each other with I have seen put others to tears. You are expected to be able to speak your mind, but expect it to
a) not be taken too seriously and
b) come back at you.
Hard to explain really.

It's like, the worse things you say to your best friends. You don't insult strangers so much. You know your friends are good natured and can stand up for themselves and take it in that light. If someone reacts badly to it they are seen as the weak party. If a stranger turns the insult to a similar one jabbing you and laughs and buys them a beer - it's the best way to get integrated into a group. Getting upset, angry or whiny will lose you all respect.
Cultures eh? ;op

[skorzy.livejournal.com]

In a nutshell (since I'm soon to bed and can't offer the full bowl of nuts..)..

Yes.

I am drifting away from this "fandom", but not the material in it. Does that make sense? I'm as much a fan of anthropomorphics as I ever was, but the appeal of attending conventions etc. has waned severly over the last few years.

I could explain it better with more sleep. :)

[furtech.livejournal.com]

When you get some sleep, please elaborate-- this sounds very much the way I've been feeling. Still love the anthropomorphic aspect: creatures, costumes, art, etc, but I'm getting tired of the fandom, proper. The aspect that keeps me going to the cons is the one-stop aspect to see a lot of friends I'd not normally have the opportunity to see in person. And the prospect of meeting the rare, new friend.

I have to admit that regular old sf cons are a huge breath of fresh air compared to most of the specialty cons (comic, furry, anime). Larger numbers of functional, friendly people with a wide range of interests. I don't burn out like I do at the specialty cons (too narrow a range of interests, conversations, behavior).

[skorzy.livejournal.com]

I've felt like this for a long time. I don't feel I really "fit in" with the "fandom" at large anymore. Though, I never really felt that way anyways!

I think one of the problems is I've developed a reluctance to be around "fannish" people, and the friends I've made in this (and other) fandoms are those that don't have that fannish air about them (or, at least, confine it to fannish activities). Most of the newer friends I've met and keep in contact with have interests outside the fandom, in the "real world" that I find a commonality with. This isn't isolated to "Furry", but any scifi/fantasy fandom. I stopped going to scifi/fantasy cons awhile ago because I was just getting irritated with the parade of fannish people, drama and attitudes.

The time, expense and stress related to going to cons just isn't worth it to me anymore. I keep thinking of the OTHER things I could be doing with that time instead of attending Cons! I'm single and I would really like to mingle in social scenes that are going to be productive in changing that. The whole furry scene doesn't really hold alot of options there. (If I were gay, well..it'd be a different story). I'm at the age where I should really be putting my social time into avenues where I have chances.

However, I *love* anthropomorphics. Its been a part of my life since childhood. Alot of the material in the fandom still attracts me. I've realized long ago I'll never grow entirely "tired" of the scene, but the "fandom" itself is stale and just not an attraction to me anymore.

Rereading this and I haven't exactly explained how I feel. :) Though, pinpointing on "fannish" behaviour is probably the #1 reason I am drifting. I prefer the company of people who have lives outside the fandom, but find the fandom a point of interest like I do.

I was fortunate to discover a POD of them at MFF. And thus, MFF 2004 was the best con experience I ever had.

No worries though, if I consider someone a "friend", either in the fandom or not, I'm not going to "drift away" from them.

[ruggels.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think you touched on the main issue right there! What drives people away is not that their interests lessesn, but that they increasingly despise "drama" inherent in the fandom. All the rampant emotionalism, noise, and lack of maturity, basically energy expended in activities that are essentially meaningless. They get too much of their fill in fan politics, and leave. It doesn't necessarily need to be focussed at them. In re-enacting the biggest difference between WW2 and Civil War Re-enactors is that the Unit Leaders in Civil War units are often elected by members of the unit, whereas members of the WW@ units are appointed for life. We often get civil war guys coming to our hobby to escape the politicking. Also in the WW2 group, badly led units fade over time.

Scott

Scott

[furtech.livejournal.com]

We have very similar thoughts on this, and we're at similar points of our lives. Agree re: being single and looking. But then...all I have to do is spend a little time on Eharmony or Match.com and I flee back to the fannish arenas. If I see another, "What I'm most passionate about: friends, family, good food," answer, I'll go mad(er)! I probably have an anuerism if someone actually answered with something like, "Friends, Family, Rapier Fencing."

Two things I hate about furry fandom (besides chronic Asperger's Syndrome and overt pornography): 1.) Infantalism (using words like, "Wuf," "wuv," "fwendwy" or acting like pre-schoolers) and 2.) all the uninvited touching.

Points to some of this...

[wyoon.livejournal.com]

Furtech, Skorzy,

Now Skorzy also hit on points I didn't think about or simply could not alliterate properly. Well put Skorzy.

[redstorm.livejournal.com]

Awww, don't go just yet guys, I only 'joined' in 2002. I need more excuses to see you. ;o)

Still going strong on the larp 'fandom' (it kinda is really, eh?) tho.

[skorzy.livejournal.com]

Naww.. I'm not going anywhere.

Though I have zero interest in LARPS (at least, from my experience with NERO), hearing you talk about your larp adventures on the other side of the pond keep me interested enough to consider trying it again someday.

[redstorm.livejournal.com]

You're always invited to a UK game :o)

[ruggels.livejournal.com]

Surfing in from iisaw's journal. Hope you don't mind. I see a lot of the parallels between the fandom involvement, and the re-enactor hobby. The exits from either seem very similar. In the Re-enactment hobby, it's often a hobby for the young, but there is a problem in that it's a very expensive hobby compared to the fandom, so re-enactors have to have a serious comitment to it to play. 19 -25 year olds tend not to have enough income other than to support one or two impressions. When they reach their early thirties they are usually at their peak of involvemnt,but as fitness declines, or other factors impinge such as kids, involvement tapers off, and declines. So for older re-enactors that do WW2, they either buy or crew a vehicle, so they no longer have to walk, or they sell of their combat gear, and keep one or two "Dress Uniforms" for holiday parties or ceremonies, until they finally don't come out any more. However when visited, they still have their huge libraries, their Movie Collections, and often their photo albums. They still have their interest, but their situation or priorities changed.

For me I always held most of furry fandom at a bit of a distance, because I did not like the people in charge at the time, nor the themes they promoted. Before they arrrived there was a brief time, whern the fandom was optomistic, and looking outward, with early Albedo, Michroney's "Space Ark", and before Mike Kazaleh turned into the bitterest pill in the universe,, that I loved the stuff, and found the fandom fascinating, but then the fandom turned inward, and pessimistic and fearful, a den of victims, that it became. The stories ceased to be about exploration and logic, and became about relationships and emotion. It wasn't "fun", though some of the folks I met were. Though now the demographics are changing, and it's slightly more interesting, though the exploratory, and outward look is long gone.

The only reason I go to cons is to have good coversation with a few cool folks at the con, either in rooms or over meals, and very rarely buy items I could not obtain elsewhere, though that is rarer and rarer these days.

Scott

[furtech.livejournal.com]

Interesting observances on re-enactment fans: the high cost of the hobby tending to discourage what is usually the prime demographic of media fandoms (college-aged people). And that fitness can create an upper limit to members.

I'm forever discouraged to find that politics isn't limited by age or intelligence.

I think the beginning of the end was when "Anthropomorphic" lost out to "Furry" and the fandom's tag.

[ironbadger.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, I stopped going to mainstream SF cons years ago because I got a faceful of "we hate you because your a furry" at several cons in a row..
Or people were just snotty and unfriendly regardless of what sub-fandom you belonged to.
(Loscon and worldcon in Anaheim were very unfriendly- after several loscons in a row where the attendees were just impossible to talk to, I stopped going entirely.)

Comicon I still attend- for one day in order to troop in my stormtrooper armor.
But the place is so huge and packed with tons of faceless humanity that I have pretty much given up any attempt at socialising there.


I have friends I hang out with in furry fandom at FC-
I've been to a couple of other cons outside of california, but for some reason I don't feel as welcome or comfortable at them.

I left civil war re-enacting years ago because of snotty attitudes and overt politics that just plain pissed me off.


FC is a blast- but the need to work a dealer's room table limits the time I can spend having any fun at the con, so I always feel a little cheated when its over. (At least, if the sales have been bad..)

This last FC was the first time in at least a couple of years where I have felt creatively recharged after it was over.
Thats a good feeling, and its all too rare these days.
I think a lot of it was the chance to get in some costuming time again. :)
I'd forgotten how much I missed it.


As for drifting away and losing interest?
Nah.
I admit my expectations are not the same as they were many years ago.
My sense of wonder is tarnished with experience and hard lessons-
But I like to think that I have also learned to appreciate more what I have now because you can lose it without warning.

Fandom changed my life and gave me a reason to hope for things getting better.
It gave me friends and opportunites that I would never have had if I'd never found fandom.
I'm grateful for them.
And I'll never forget that.

-Badger-