furtech | Westminster 2011- I'm of two minds

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Westminster 2011- I'm of two minds

I managed to tune in just in time to catch the herding group! Neat to see some new breeds: the
Icelandic Sheepdog is pretty cute.

I'm becoming a big fan of
Beaucerons : these dogs are spectacular. If someone forced me to own a black-and-tan dog, this would easily be the breed I'd pick. I've liked them ever since seeing a pair at the Pet Expo a few years ago.

Border collie: I'm of two minds on this. There are really two different breeds-- the working dogs and the show dogs ("Barbie-collies"). The dog in the Westminster show was adorable. Very cute. But he didn't have the intensity that I associate with the breed. I saw this especially in his eyes-- the border's eyes were so soft they made R0ndo's eyes look practically steely! Also, the way the dog moved made me think that this squat, short-legged dog couldn't herd a couple of ducks-- let alone Suffolk on a rocky hillside. He looked more like a long-tailed Aussie.

Here's a site advertising working border collie stud dogs. Compare that with a site featuring AKC champion dogs. There are so many differences-- from the short-muzzle look preferred in ACK competitions to the body language of the dogs. The working dogs are tense and alert, head-low and eyes intense. The show dogs are walking nonchalantly upright, almost strolling. Their eyes are soft and sweet, not alert and intense. The show dogs look more like Australian Shepherds, with thick bodies, short legs and short, wide faces. Not surprisingly, the AKC standard was written by someone who neither bred border collies nor participated in herding: the breed -standard- was written by them based how they thought--logically--the dog should look and move to run around chasing sheep. Wow.

Some of the problems are obvious: here is video of the border collie group judging. Look at how the dogs are allowed to move. Now compare this to the movements of a good working border collie. How in the -world- can you judge the health and ability of a working dog merely by watching them prance around a ring!? That would be like giving grades to students by feeling their head and watching them read a book.

I grabbed some pics off the web to illustrate this:
barbievsworkbc

And this is where I end up all over the field on this: I like watching dog shows. AKC-type dogs are -much- better for the average person than real working dogs. And yet I'm frustrated-- probably because the breeds I like (mostly working/sporting breeds) are (IMO) judged unfairly. If the AKC just called their competitions "Beauty Shows" I would have no problem (because that's what they are). Cutest dog wins. Or some such. But to judge working breeds against toy and companion breeds in a situation and under criteria that clearly favors the non-working dogs is unfair--both to the dogs in the show and to the breed in general. This is especially aggravating when the AKC touts their "preserving the breeds" agenda.

I have the same mixed feeling when it comes to the Siberian Husky: I love the show dogs and the working dogs. I think the show dog are adorable, and fine for us city-folk. But the AKC and the way it's run is -not- preserving the breed. Quite the opposite. (Note: this isn't limited to these two breeds-- this criticism is talked about amongst many of the working/sporting breeders and fanciers.)

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I haven't seen them in a bit, but Animal Planet was running "dirt dog" trials for working terriers for a bit. They need a special set up to show you the dogs racing through the tunnels, but it was pretty cool. So working trials can be televised, they just need a bit more planning than the general beauty pagents.

I saw that show! I think the problem is that it was a bit of a one trick pony: once you see a terrier dash though an underground maze, it's hard to do variations on that each week.

The do televise sheepdog trials-- but mostly in Britain. It's a bit like dressage: fascinating to those who know what to look for, but after the first few, most people lose interest.

The real reason the AKC doesn't include this: too much trouble, too costly, logistics, etc. Much easier to cut corners, cookie-cutter style and brag what a good job they did at the end of the day.

I've never been a huge fan of the AKC and their standards, partly because, like you said, it's so chaotic to compare so many varied breeds against each other, and partly because some of the breed standards are so unnatural and arbitrary. For examples, Dobermans need to have their ears pinned and their tails docked?! I understand why that would be important for a "working dog" guard who has to look fierce and for whom a long tail may be a liability in a fight situation, but it seems stupid to have the "breed standard" require surgical augmentation and amputation! And, of course, all those breeds that are just being interbred into unhealthy gene pools.

Plus, I'm just a big fan of mutts and mixed breeds anyway. Plenty of those in dog pounds and rescue shelters who need homes, and I don't see the AKC's "breed preservation" fetish being much help in dealing with all of those.

Love a good mutt. That's what is so neat about dogs: there is such variety that you can always find a dog to fit every need or preference.

Re:dobies-- in England, they don't crop ears any more (even show dogs). In fact, it's considered animal cruelty and (I believe) against the law. Tails: different story. The breed has -very- weak tails. Docking prevents inevitable damage later on. They often break (sometimes just by hitting a wall while wagging), and circulation is so poor in the tail that it never heals.

Huh. Obviously Casey didn't inherit the dobie tail genes then ... She swings that thing hard enough to knock anything over and whacks it hard against walls and doorjams daily. :)

I totally agree with you on the border collies. While I'm happy one took 3rd last night, at the same time what I see in Westminster seems to have no relationship to REAL border collies I've known.

I remember when border collies were accepted by the AKC- I'm still on the Corgi-list and it was a big debate back then. Apparently the border collie people weren't so happy about the prospect of border collies being accepted by the AKC, but there must have been a faction who pushed them through.

It is really weird to see what "fads" erupt in animal fancies. Corgis used to be slightly longer legged (and personally I wish they'd go back to a slightly longer leg- I hate to see Pembrokes with their chests practically touching the ground.) Quarter horses are now divided into hideous halter horses and working horses (and Arabians suffer some of that too). And of course there are the Siamese cats.

I love it when the announcer makes a point to say "this dog is a working dog as well as a showdog." One thing that did make me cringe was when the announcers were talking about foxhounds as "good family pets". Hoboy, that's not what I've read about foxhounds!

Anyway, about border collies- I always thought the point of breeding border collies was to breed smart herding dog to smart herding dog, not so much what they looked like but how they acted.

By the way I saw a woman jogging with a beautiful husky this morning and I thought of you!

Corgis used to be slightly longer legged (and personally I wish they'd go back to a slightly longer leg

I am so with you on that.

I have Cardigans, and several years ago it seemed like all the show Cardis had super long bodies and super short legs - awful for what is supposed to be a functional working dog. Things seem to have improved a bit since then, at least.

I love Cardigans! My dream dog is a blue merle Cardi, but most likely when I'm in a position to have a dog I'll look for a rescue Corgi of either breed.

"...weren't so happy about the prospect of border collies being accepted by the AKC..."

You can say that again! The Dog Wars: How the Border Collie Battled the American Kennel Club (http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Wars-Border-Battled-American/dp/0979469007) documents that conflict. Excellent read! The bc herding clubs even filed a lawsuit to prevent it.

The faction who pushed the BC in:
Eventually, the AKC got bc's in by threatening the agility people (mostly border collie owners) that their dogs must be registered or they wouldn't be allowed to compete.

"Good family pets"-- they said the same thing about the St. Bernard! Everything I've heard about the breed is exactly the opposite-- big, stubborn and slightly aggressive.

The USBCHA is pretty cool about breed specifics: you send them a photo of the dog and if it mostly looks border collie-ish, it's in. No need for papers or lineage proof. In fact, the blood is still bad between them and the AKC, to the point where if a dog is registered with the AKC, it won't be allowed in the herding trials.

Huskies! Awww...just seeing a husky makes my throat tighten and my heart swell remembering her. (<--not because of allergies!)

"The USBCHA is pretty cool about breed specifics: you send them a photo of the dog and if it mostly looks border collie-ish, it's in. No need for papers or lineage proof"

What a WONDERFUL idea.

Pedigreeing (dogs must ALL be descended from the founder stock and ONLY from the founder stock: often less than 50 animals, sometimes less than TEN) is a recipe for genetic disaster. Without mixing and outbreeding, a pedigree breed has a finite lifespan, probably 100-300 years depending on the founder pool and breeding practices. After that you start to get severe inbreeding depression, even the best screening programmes can't INCREASE variation.

I've always thought that even for show dogs, typeyness should be more important than pedigree.

The AKC has really branched out recently - if you check out their web page they are really updated in keeping studbook records, accepting all breeds/mutts in all non-conformation events (and calling them conformation events - which is equivalent to 'beauty show'). I used to have quite a similar attitude as to what you expressed here, but having been running in the high level dog show circuit over the last few years (as a vendor), I am impressed by the working breed people. Almost all the people at the Siberian Husky nationals worked their dogs. Skijoring, dogsledding, all sorts of outdoor events. They really cared about the breed and yes, the beauty - but a beauty born of purpose and necessity as well as 'looks'.
I do agree there is a general bias against the working dogs as being 'homely' - general fanciers care more about the poodle than the average flock guardian - however, that too makes sense. Poodles have been bred more exclusively for looks in the show circuit intensively (taken further from their roots - most pet poodle owners or the few who have them for hunting keep them in a kennel clip and never participate in confirmation) - so the more attention = more dogs = more dogs bred for looks = better chance of finding dogs SO close to the breed standard they beat out others consistently. Of course there is also politics... but you are more likely to see a cocker spaniel, poodle, or peke win a dog show than a border collie.
However, AKC is doing a lot of good! They put a ton of money into education, medical research, and public contact - they are really moving in that direction. I've been quite impressed by the organization over time!
Also, conformation is only one face of the AKC - they run and host tons of agility, rally, obedience, hunting, herding, and other trials. Many more so than the conformation events combined.
At the high school prom no one votes the homely working girl princess and the dog show world is no different. ;) But there are plenty of people who see past it - and to use that metaphor, the AKC is more like a high school than a prom committee. :)

I partially agree with this. I go to shows and events (the bigger shows that combine conformation with agility and breed specific events) with some regularity. I like many of the people at the participant level-- the individual clubs and specifically the breed clubs. They -do- perform a lot of good work in public education and research--but at the same time they will turn a blind eye towards known breed problems. A particular example: cavalier king charles spaniels and their heart problems. This defect is well known within the AKC circles but dogs still get papers despite that.

One problem is that the AKC gets a lot of cash-money in exchange for pieces of paper that cost next to nothing to produce. The more dogs they can give papers to, the more money they make. The higher-ups in the organization don't want to risk this cash-cow, so they are -very- reluctant to take any breeder to task for bad breeding. 99% of the people in the AKC are wonderful. That exclusive one percent, though, operates in the same secretive, sinister and exclusive manner that is reminiscent of the highest levels of the Mormon Church and Scientology.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a german shepherd person and the differences between American/German Show lines and working lines is like night and day. Heck, the differences between German and American show lines is pretty massive. Though American line breeders are slowly improving the looks of their dogs, I'll always be a sucker for a good looking working line.

Growing up my family was given a 3 year old GSD imported from overseas (he would run away from the original owners. We never had an issue lol) and wow was he gorgeous. Rugged and masculine. When my mom took him in to get neutered, the vet asked her not to XD She did anyways because we needed a family dog not a stud dog.

Then when I grew up and saw what the normal american GSD looks like it was like a bucket of cold water to the face :(

Edited 2011-02-16 00:26 (UTC)

Yes, I love the thicker bone, richer pigment, and drivier nature of the german lines. Though I'm not at all attracted to the german show either, but every line has it's extremes. I look forward to getting my pup.

I think only the US still uses that slouched-posture that GSD's are stacked as in AKC shows. American GSD's also have a HUGE history of early hip dysplasia as a result of this standard and poor breeding.

Well, the German show lines have that banana back thing going on. Not that I'm saying that working lines are perfect, I've seen a few show dogs with moderate structure that I wouldn't mind having as a pet, but I actually want to get involved with schutzhund, so working lines is what I'll get. When I think of the GSD I think of dogs that look like Nary's:

Agreed on the BCs. I was just reading about huskies earlier and from the photos I was looking at, the huskies of the '20s and 30s don't exactly look like huskies today, though they do apparently share bloodlines.
German Shepherds are another dog I have an AKC quibble about. Those sloping hips! How do those dogs walk? And is it any wonder they have a strong tendency for hip dysplasia? I might love to have a purebred GSD someday, but I know I'd be looking for one NOT bred for the showring. (Well, and I'd want to get one from a rescue anyway....)

My thoughts exactly!

Get a Shiloh Shepherd! (http://www.shilohshepherd.com/) They're essentially GSD's that were bred for size-- particularly when it was discovered that the larger bone size resulted in -less- hip dysplasia. They're beautiful, smart, robust dogs!

Good to know of! Thanks.

There are many different lines of GSDs. The show lines are the one's with lots of rear angulation. The working lines have less angulation, thicker bone, and more drives(good if you want to do dog sports, or just to have an easily motivated dog). Here's a picture of one my my favorite working line dogs:

Narys Policia-Slovakia

Also good to know! Thanks!

Yeah, when it comes to GSDs there are a lot of options. I am sad that the working/show split has drifted this far. It's not good for the breed.

My only problem with Shiloh's is that they're essentially dumbed down over-sized, GSD's. They softened the true GSD temperament and drives, that makes them such versatile dogs and when you breed for one aspect, whether size, conformation, or drives, you lose proper temperament and you get unstable dogs.

Plenty of GSDs have good bone, just looking at the German show and working lines(particularly the DDR and Czech working line dogs). The dog I posted the picture of is a Czech lined dog, with a few DDR dogs in his pedigree.
Here's a picture of a DDR Great Dargo von den Thuringer Kronjuwelen.

I know exactly what you mean. When I got my Border Collie it was back before they were recognized by the AKC. Most people had no idea what he was when I would tell them. People were very concerned at the time that once they got recognized they would become popular and their fabulous traits would be bred out of them. It's very upsetting to see this come true. Sure, you can still get a traditional Border Collie but so many that I see are just not it and it's a bit heartbreaking. Doppler, the blue merle BC I'm training right now is a great dog and I love him BUT he has average dog intelligence and I've NEVER seen him look intensely at anything or do the crouch. It's sad.

The obvious example is the rough collie. This was what the BC people pointed to when the AKC first attempted to annex the breed. Rough collies are gorgeous, but not so smart or good at herding any more.

I love Beaucerons as well. They were on my short list as a breed I would like to get for myself. Since space tends to be more an issue for me at this point in my life I defer to heelers which are smaller.

Ugh don't get me started on showing dogs. It's like zoos... it's good to have and fills a purpose that is needed but you cannot compare the caged and non-caged versions.

Even though it is smarter for the average person to get a show dog due to the calmer temperament/genetic screening, it does bug me quite a bit to see working lines 'dumbed down' or to see such a gap between working a show lines. Almost becoming 2 separate breeds.

The worst example off hand is GSD... given their popularity the exaggeration of 'beauty' has caused defects to the point where if many of these dogs were asked to work, they would be physically unable. Because the breed standards and the breed requirements don't match.

As far as non-working breeds go I have no issues. People buy them knowing they have been bred for beauty and are knowingly going into it that way. But if I'm active and so I get a working dog to keep up with me and it falls apart.. that's a bit of a tragedy.

Agreed 100%.

It's sad when I find show breeder websites that list nothing about health testing for the respective breed- no hip tests for GSDs, no cardio tests for Dobermans, etc- because the stacked structure of the dog according to a standard counts more importantly than the dog being a physically sound example of the breed.

There's a reason why, if a friend asks me to give them opinions of a particular breeder, I look for health testing as one of the primary red-or-green flags. If one is going to pay $800+ for a dog, one should be getting a dog that has a better guarantee of sound health throughout their life.

Again, as much good as the AKC might do, their blind-eye to these matters destroys their credibility when it comes to "maintaining and improving" the individual breeds.

I have a friend who got a Vizsla puppy that had demodectic mange. When it was diagnosed, she contacted the breeder-- who vehemently denied any wrong-doing or responsibility. The AKC was pretty useless: they essentially sided with the breeder and that person and her bitch is still producing puppies.

WRT to the companion breeds (especially the toys and such), I agree. Beauty contests for them? No problem. Though I do O_o at dogs that are so deformed (pugs, bulldogs) that they can't breathe or breed without difficulty.

Hey, that first working dog in your collage - that's Amanda Milliken's Bart - he and Finn are from the same root lines.:) Fabulous dog, I've watched him work. Amanda lives a few hours away from me.

I really dislike how much show breeding ruins the working abilities of so many dogs. Herders, gun dogs, retrievers, guardians... you name it. While a lot of the jobs those dogs are used for just aren't as common nowadays, the traits that the working dogs were bred for originally are still prized by their relative enthusiasts - Finn may be mostly a pet dog, but I got him from a working breeder because my love for the border collie includes those fabulous working traits - the willingness to work for the owner, the quickness and responsiveness, the energy, drive, stamina... it's all I want in a dog. Finn is all that and more.

I've met some Barbie Collies and they might as well be black and white pet-bred Goldens. Not that pet bred Goldens are a bad thing, but a border collie should not fall under the same category as them.

I too still enjoy watching dog shows, but have an underlying bitterness about a lot of it. I'm too much of a snob. :P

Ha-ha! Cool! I was looking for pictures that showed the body-set and "The Eye" of a working dog. Amazing of you to recognize him! I got it from this website:

http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/studs.htm

I always thought Finn was a handsome, keen-eyed BC! Maybe someday I'll see Amanda's dogs work-- if you ever see her, (fwiw) tell her that she has at least one fan all the way down in Southern California!

Your last paragraph exactly sums up my feelings. Dog shows are fun, but...

Within the link you posted... HL's Coal is Finn's daddy. :)

I usually go down to the big Grass Creek trial in Kingston in August to watch Amanda, Mary (Finn's breeder) and many other outstanding herders do their work. If you can ever travel out you have a place to stay!

[Brer] The AKC itself actually has limited input into much of what you are talking about here. The standards are largely set by the breed parent club, with the AKC moderating and ratifying them to a certain extent.

Ultimately even the breed standard is hopelessly broad when it comes down to selecting winners and losers. Judges base decisions on ephemera to narrow it down to an individual, and such things are prone to fads. If a few judges start picking out stockier collies rather than rangy ones, other judges notice and start doing the same. Breeders notice THAT and start breeding for that. The breed shifts a little. Then they are ALL stocky and judges find something else to focus on. It shifts again...

Ultimately, the power lies with the parent clubs to try and broaden the spectrum. I think in the last 10 years more and more of the clubs behind active, purpose-bred breeds are paying closer attention to encouraging well-rounded individuals. It's not going to undo so many years of damage overnight, but a lot of them have the right idea.

Right-- but in the case of the border collie, the herding clubs resisted assimilation (see above, "The Dog Wars"). So the AKC had one of their own create the standard. This person neither bred nor trialed border collies (hence the standard that has turned them into long-tailed Australian Shepherds). The judges have their directives and can be advised on certain traits (or they stop being asked to judged and few will risk the loss of that prestigious and powerful job).

My beef is specifically with the working breeds (including the herders and sporting and hunting breeds). Based on what is winning, there is an argument that looks are winning out over function.

And there is still the blind-eye wrt health and genetic problems.

[Brer] Yeah all of the above is one of the reasons I lost interest in conformation showing. The other being that unless you invest MASSIVE amounts of time in studying what specific individual judges are looking for and how to adapt your presentation to their eye, you'll never win reliably in a breed like huskies... I don't have time for a fourth or fifth career.

Looks are definitely winning out over function though, that I will agree. Huskies have been less polluted than some breeds, thanks mostly to a parent club that never suffered the schism that border collies did. Oh there is still great variation in AKC registered husky lines that fall between "pulling" and "show" styles -- but for the most part pullers can still show and showers can still pull.

You won't win sledding races with a team of all pure Siberian husky stock anyway. It's more about assembling a bunch of individual dogs of varied strengths to make a team that is the most adaptable over the long haul.

The extreme lengths that some will go to win is at the heart of a lot of problems in any competition these days. As you've discovered, the biggest winners in the dog world have owners who are willing to spend $$$ and time to achieve this-- to a eye-popping extreme. I know of some owners who literally spend their whole lives traveling to show after show, driving all over the US to get their dog finished (or just to accumulate wins). This isn't limited to conformation, too: agility, obedience and any of the competitions that one can "win" have similar fanatics. It's hard for the average fancier to compete. Still, at the individual club level, at least, it can be a lot of fun (if you don't take it TOO seriously).

I don't know about other clubs, but the two Siberian clubs I'm familiar with seem to have more fun than other breed clubs: sled pulling and carting, snow trips, etc. The Bay Area Siberian Husky Club (BASH) even used to run a fun-match that was run exactly like a real show-- but with the open friendliness of a fun-match. (Unfortunately, it was -so- well run that some people started taking it too seriously and a rift formed in the club, essentially ending the event from what I've heard. So it goes.)

Mushing: the same problem of extremism-to-win applies. That intensity has led to some unfortunate and unpleasant things occurring in the sport. And as with the above: despite the downsides and negatives, I still love watching them!

Oh man, I hear ya: look at German Shepherds, ack! What have they DONE??

See above wrt Shiloh Shepherds-- they're really neat dogs!

The Icelandic Sheepdog is adorable.

I cannot believe the amount of fluff on some of those show Border Collies. I thought they're supposed to be an "all-weather working dog" (like Cardigan Welsh Corgis, for whom a long fluffy coat is considered a fault as it is not a great working coat.)

A lot of Cardigan breeders seem to be interested in herding as well (quite a number have farms with livestock), so hopefully the intelligence and build which makes a decent herding dog will not be bred out of them...

LOL
I jumped from your link to the CWC judging, and while I am certainly no expert on the standard, I TOTALLY called the BoB & BoOS winners, based solely on the fact that ALL the others carried their tails high in the air like banners when running (a fault).

My personal favorite was the brindle BoOS bitch. I liked her carriage and her good working coat, although at first I was afraid she seemed to be the one "most likely to be overlooked" with the flashy merles and longish coats (some really looked too long to me) out there.

"...the others carried their tails high in the air like banners when running (a fault)."

That's called a "gay tail". We tease R0ndo about that all the time...

Good call on the BoB/BoOS! I agree wrt the other dogs: these are supposed to be the best in the country, and yet some of them looked really off to me. Weird.

I do love that they have the video from the breed judging online. I wish I could download it, though, because my connection is wonky and it's easier to watch off-line.

Speaking of "new to Westminster" this year, did you see the Boykin Spaniel in the Sporting Group? Glen's ancestors on his mother's side created the breed. It was good to see them finally recognized.

Also, the Redbone Coonhound, finally! We used to have one named Rocky. :)

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Westminster 2011- I'm of two minds

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