furtech | Westminster 2011- I'm of two minds

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Westminster 2011- I'm of two minds

I managed to tune in just in time to catch the herding group! Neat to see some new breeds: the
Icelandic Sheepdog is pretty cute.

I'm becoming a big fan of
Beaucerons : these dogs are spectacular. If someone forced me to own a black-and-tan dog, this would easily be the breed I'd pick. I've liked them ever since seeing a pair at the Pet Expo a few years ago.

Border collie: I'm of two minds on this. There are really two different breeds-- the working dogs and the show dogs ("Barbie-collies"). The dog in the Westminster show was adorable. Very cute. But he didn't have the intensity that I associate with the breed. I saw this especially in his eyes-- the border's eyes were so soft they made R0ndo's eyes look practically steely! Also, the way the dog moved made me think that this squat, short-legged dog couldn't herd a couple of ducks-- let alone Suffolk on a rocky hillside. He looked more like a long-tailed Aussie.

Here's a site advertising working border collie stud dogs. Compare that with a site featuring AKC champion dogs. There are so many differences-- from the short-muzzle look preferred in ACK competitions to the body language of the dogs. The working dogs are tense and alert, head-low and eyes intense. The show dogs are walking nonchalantly upright, almost strolling. Their eyes are soft and sweet, not alert and intense. The show dogs look more like Australian Shepherds, with thick bodies, short legs and short, wide faces. Not surprisingly, the AKC standard was written by someone who neither bred border collies nor participated in herding: the breed -standard- was written by them based how they thought--logically--the dog should look and move to run around chasing sheep. Wow.

Some of the problems are obvious: here is video of the border collie group judging. Look at how the dogs are allowed to move. Now compare this to the movements of a good working border collie. How in the -world- can you judge the health and ability of a working dog merely by watching them prance around a ring!? That would be like giving grades to students by feeling their head and watching them read a book.

I grabbed some pics off the web to illustrate this:
barbievsworkbc

And this is where I end up all over the field on this: I like watching dog shows. AKC-type dogs are -much- better for the average person than real working dogs. And yet I'm frustrated-- probably because the breeds I like (mostly working/sporting breeds) are (IMO) judged unfairly. If the AKC just called their competitions "Beauty Shows" I would have no problem (because that's what they are). Cutest dog wins. Or some such. But to judge working breeds against toy and companion breeds in a situation and under criteria that clearly favors the non-working dogs is unfair--both to the dogs in the show and to the breed in general. This is especially aggravating when the AKC touts their "preserving the breeds" agenda.

I have the same mixed feeling when it comes to the Siberian Husky: I love the show dogs and the working dogs. I think the show dog are adorable, and fine for us city-folk. But the AKC and the way it's run is -not- preserving the breed. Quite the opposite. (Note: this isn't limited to these two breeds-- this criticism is talked about amongst many of the working/sporting breeders and fanciers.)

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I haven't seen them in a bit, but Animal Planet was running "dirt dog" trials for working terriers for a bit. They need a special set up to show you the dogs racing through the tunnels, but it was pretty cool. So working trials can be televised, they just need a bit more planning than the general beauty pagents.

I've never been a huge fan of the AKC and their standards, partly because, like you said, it's so chaotic to compare so many varied breeds against each other, and partly because some of the breed standards are so unnatural and arbitrary. For examples, Dobermans need to have their ears pinned and their tails docked?! I understand why that would be important for a "working dog" guard who has to look fierce and for whom a long tail may be a liability in a fight situation, but it seems stupid to have the "breed standard" require surgical augmentation and amputation! And, of course, all those breeds that are just being interbred into unhealthy gene pools.

Plus, I'm just a big fan of mutts and mixed breeds anyway. Plenty of those in dog pounds and rescue shelters who need homes, and I don't see the AKC's "breed preservation" fetish being much help in dealing with all of those.

I totally agree with you on the border collies. While I'm happy one took 3rd last night, at the same time what I see in Westminster seems to have no relationship to REAL border collies I've known.

I remember when border collies were accepted by the AKC- I'm still on the Corgi-list and it was a big debate back then. Apparently the border collie people weren't so happy about the prospect of border collies being accepted by the AKC, but there must have been a faction who pushed them through.

It is really weird to see what "fads" erupt in animal fancies. Corgis used to be slightly longer legged (and personally I wish they'd go back to a slightly longer leg- I hate to see Pembrokes with their chests practically touching the ground.) Quarter horses are now divided into hideous halter horses and working horses (and Arabians suffer some of that too). And of course there are the Siamese cats.

I love it when the announcer makes a point to say "this dog is a working dog as well as a showdog." One thing that did make me cringe was when the announcers were talking about foxhounds as "good family pets". Hoboy, that's not what I've read about foxhounds!

Anyway, about border collies- I always thought the point of breeding border collies was to breed smart herding dog to smart herding dog, not so much what they looked like but how they acted.

By the way I saw a woman jogging with a beautiful husky this morning and I thought of you!

The AKC has really branched out recently - if you check out their web page they are really updated in keeping studbook records, accepting all breeds/mutts in all non-conformation events (and calling them conformation events - which is equivalent to 'beauty show'). I used to have quite a similar attitude as to what you expressed here, but having been running in the high level dog show circuit over the last few years (as a vendor), I am impressed by the working breed people. Almost all the people at the Siberian Husky nationals worked their dogs. Skijoring, dogsledding, all sorts of outdoor events. They really cared about the breed and yes, the beauty - but a beauty born of purpose and necessity as well as 'looks'.
I do agree there is a general bias against the working dogs as being 'homely' - general fanciers care more about the poodle than the average flock guardian - however, that too makes sense. Poodles have been bred more exclusively for looks in the show circuit intensively (taken further from their roots - most pet poodle owners or the few who have them for hunting keep them in a kennel clip and never participate in confirmation) - so the more attention = more dogs = more dogs bred for looks = better chance of finding dogs SO close to the breed standard they beat out others consistently. Of course there is also politics... but you are more likely to see a cocker spaniel, poodle, or peke win a dog show than a border collie.
However, AKC is doing a lot of good! They put a ton of money into education, medical research, and public contact - they are really moving in that direction. I've been quite impressed by the organization over time!
Also, conformation is only one face of the AKC - they run and host tons of agility, rally, obedience, hunting, herding, and other trials. Many more so than the conformation events combined.
At the high school prom no one votes the homely working girl princess and the dog show world is no different. ;) But there are plenty of people who see past it - and to use that metaphor, the AKC is more like a high school than a prom committee. :)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a german shepherd person and the differences between American/German Show lines and working lines is like night and day. Heck, the differences between German and American show lines is pretty massive. Though American line breeders are slowly improving the looks of their dogs, I'll always be a sucker for a good looking working line.

Agreed on the BCs. I was just reading about huskies earlier and from the photos I was looking at, the huskies of the '20s and 30s don't exactly look like huskies today, though they do apparently share bloodlines.
German Shepherds are another dog I have an AKC quibble about. Those sloping hips! How do those dogs walk? And is it any wonder they have a strong tendency for hip dysplasia? I might love to have a purebred GSD someday, but I know I'd be looking for one NOT bred for the showring. (Well, and I'd want to get one from a rescue anyway....)

I know exactly what you mean. When I got my Border Collie it was back before they were recognized by the AKC. Most people had no idea what he was when I would tell them. People were very concerned at the time that once they got recognized they would become popular and their fabulous traits would be bred out of them. It's very upsetting to see this come true. Sure, you can still get a traditional Border Collie but so many that I see are just not it and it's a bit heartbreaking. Doppler, the blue merle BC I'm training right now is a great dog and I love him BUT he has average dog intelligence and I've NEVER seen him look intensely at anything or do the crouch. It's sad.

I love Beaucerons as well. They were on my short list as a breed I would like to get for myself. Since space tends to be more an issue for me at this point in my life I defer to heelers which are smaller.

Ugh don't get me started on showing dogs. It's like zoos... it's good to have and fills a purpose that is needed but you cannot compare the caged and non-caged versions.

Even though it is smarter for the average person to get a show dog due to the calmer temperament/genetic screening, it does bug me quite a bit to see working lines 'dumbed down' or to see such a gap between working a show lines. Almost becoming 2 separate breeds.

The worst example off hand is GSD... given their popularity the exaggeration of 'beauty' has caused defects to the point where if many of these dogs were asked to work, they would be physically unable. Because the breed standards and the breed requirements don't match.

As far as non-working breeds go I have no issues. People buy them knowing they have been bred for beauty and are knowingly going into it that way. But if I'm active and so I get a working dog to keep up with me and it falls apart.. that's a bit of a tragedy.

Hey, that first working dog in your collage - that's Amanda Milliken's Bart - he and Finn are from the same root lines.:) Fabulous dog, I've watched him work. Amanda lives a few hours away from me.

I really dislike how much show breeding ruins the working abilities of so many dogs. Herders, gun dogs, retrievers, guardians... you name it. While a lot of the jobs those dogs are used for just aren't as common nowadays, the traits that the working dogs were bred for originally are still prized by their relative enthusiasts - Finn may be mostly a pet dog, but I got him from a working breeder because my love for the border collie includes those fabulous working traits - the willingness to work for the owner, the quickness and responsiveness, the energy, drive, stamina... it's all I want in a dog. Finn is all that and more.

I've met some Barbie Collies and they might as well be black and white pet-bred Goldens. Not that pet bred Goldens are a bad thing, but a border collie should not fall under the same category as them.

I too still enjoy watching dog shows, but have an underlying bitterness about a lot of it. I'm too much of a snob. :P

[Brer] The AKC itself actually has limited input into much of what you are talking about here. The standards are largely set by the breed parent club, with the AKC moderating and ratifying them to a certain extent.

Ultimately even the breed standard is hopelessly broad when it comes down to selecting winners and losers. Judges base decisions on ephemera to narrow it down to an individual, and such things are prone to fads. If a few judges start picking out stockier collies rather than rangy ones, other judges notice and start doing the same. Breeders notice THAT and start breeding for that. The breed shifts a little. Then they are ALL stocky and judges find something else to focus on. It shifts again...

Ultimately, the power lies with the parent clubs to try and broaden the spectrum. I think in the last 10 years more and more of the clubs behind active, purpose-bred breeds are paying closer attention to encouraging well-rounded individuals. It's not going to undo so many years of damage overnight, but a lot of them have the right idea.

Oh man, I hear ya: look at German Shepherds, ack! What have they DONE??

The Icelandic Sheepdog is adorable.

I cannot believe the amount of fluff on some of those show Border Collies. I thought they're supposed to be an "all-weather working dog" (like Cardigan Welsh Corgis, for whom a long fluffy coat is considered a fault as it is not a great working coat.)

A lot of Cardigan breeders seem to be interested in herding as well (quite a number have farms with livestock), so hopefully the intelligence and build which makes a decent herding dog will not be bred out of them...

LOL
I jumped from your link to the CWC judging, and while I am certainly no expert on the standard, I TOTALLY called the BoB & BoOS winners, based solely on the fact that ALL the others carried their tails high in the air like banners when running (a fault).

My personal favorite was the brindle BoOS bitch. I liked her carriage and her good working coat, although at first I was afraid she seemed to be the one "most likely to be overlooked" with the flashy merles and longish coats (some really looked too long to me) out there.

Speaking of "new to Westminster" this year, did you see the Boykin Spaniel in the Sporting Group? Glen's ancestors on his mother's side created the breed. It was good to see them finally recognized.

Also, the Redbone Coonhound, finally! We used to have one named Rocky. :)

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